folding to four bets
Full Tilt Poker Game #4863525652: Mondays at the Hoy (35910897), Table 6 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:27:48 ET - 2008/01/14
Seat 1: swimmom95 (3,038)
Seat 2: surflexus (5,890)
Seat 3: VinNay (6,651)
Seat 4: pvanharibo (3,759)
Seat 5: summer_babe (2,368)
surflexus posts the small blind of 25
VinNay posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pvanharibo [Kc Ks]
pvanharibo has 15 seconds left to act
pvanharibo raises to 150
summer_babe folds
swimmom95 folds
surflexus folds
VinNay raises to 350
pvanharibo has 15 seconds left to act
pvanharibo raises to 800
VinNay has 15 seconds left to act
VinNay raises to 3,600
pvanharibo raises to 3,759, and is all in
VinNay calls 159
pvanharibo shows [Kc Ks]
VinNay shows [Ad As]
pvanharibo: lol
*** FLOP *** [5h Qh 4s]
pvanharibo: gg
*** TURN *** [5h Qh 4s] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [5h Qh 4s Ac] [6h]
pvanharibo shows a pair of Kings
VinNay shows three of a kind, Aces
VinNay wins the pot (7,543) with three of a kind, Aces
VinNay: gg
surflexus: gg
pvanharibo stands up
swimmom95 stands up
surflexus stands up
VinNay stands up
summer_babe stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7,543 | Rake 0
Board: [5h Qh 4s Ac 6h]
Seat 1: swimmom95 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: surflexus (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: VinNay (big blind) showed [Ad As] and won (7,543) with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 4: pvanharibo showed [Kc Ks] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: summer_babe didn't bet (folded)
given cc and jordan's latest posts, i decided to post my exit from the math on monday night. i thought there was a chance he had AA given betting, but he'd been so aggressive that i just couldn't fathom laying down KK there five handed.
his min re-raise definitely seemed weird, but i also have a rep for being aggressive, so i think he could do that w/ a lot of hands. i actually thought about calling, but if the flop comes out similarly w/ all unders i think i'm getting my money in on the flop. that may not be a bad spot to call b/c if an A flops i can get away from the hand relatively easily.
that said, b/c he was so aggressive and had a big stack, i wanted to three bet b/c i wanted more money in the pot pre w/ what i assumed was the best hand. when he jams there, i'm left to think he's got AA, also KK or possibly AK. the thing is, i wondered if he'd even do that w/ lesser hands like QQ or JJ, just given my reputation. not sure if i should be taking that into consideration, b/c i was showing a lot of strength, but i certainly wasn't priced in to call his four bet. and even though i thought there was a chance he had AA, i called b/c i just wasn't sure i didn't have the best hand.
as fuel said in jordan's comments, in a live 1k tournament, one would lay down KK there. that's what separates good players from great players. i do think there's a difference live, and a difference between blogger and general online tournaments, but i'm not sure i'm good enough to make a lay down like this. i'd like to think so, but i don't know. especially five-handed.
Seat 1: swimmom95 (3,038)
Seat 2: surflexus (5,890)
Seat 3: VinNay (6,651)
Seat 4: pvanharibo (3,759)
Seat 5: summer_babe (2,368)
surflexus posts the small blind of 25
VinNay posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pvanharibo [Kc Ks]
pvanharibo has 15 seconds left to act
pvanharibo raises to 150
summer_babe folds
swimmom95 folds
surflexus folds
VinNay raises to 350
pvanharibo has 15 seconds left to act
pvanharibo raises to 800
VinNay has 15 seconds left to act
VinNay raises to 3,600
pvanharibo raises to 3,759, and is all in
VinNay calls 159
pvanharibo shows [Kc Ks]
VinNay shows [Ad As]
pvanharibo: lol
*** FLOP *** [5h Qh 4s]
pvanharibo: gg
*** TURN *** [5h Qh 4s] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [5h Qh 4s Ac] [6h]
pvanharibo shows a pair of Kings
VinNay shows three of a kind, Aces
VinNay wins the pot (7,543) with three of a kind, Aces
VinNay: gg
surflexus: gg
pvanharibo stands up
swimmom95 stands up
surflexus stands up
VinNay stands up
summer_babe stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7,543 | Rake 0
Board: [5h Qh 4s Ac 6h]
Seat 1: swimmom95 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: surflexus (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: VinNay (big blind) showed [Ad As] and won (7,543) with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 4: pvanharibo showed [Kc Ks] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: summer_babe didn't bet (folded)
given cc and jordan's latest posts, i decided to post my exit from the math on monday night. i thought there was a chance he had AA given betting, but he'd been so aggressive that i just couldn't fathom laying down KK there five handed.
his min re-raise definitely seemed weird, but i also have a rep for being aggressive, so i think he could do that w/ a lot of hands. i actually thought about calling, but if the flop comes out similarly w/ all unders i think i'm getting my money in on the flop. that may not be a bad spot to call b/c if an A flops i can get away from the hand relatively easily.
that said, b/c he was so aggressive and had a big stack, i wanted to three bet b/c i wanted more money in the pot pre w/ what i assumed was the best hand. when he jams there, i'm left to think he's got AA, also KK or possibly AK. the thing is, i wondered if he'd even do that w/ lesser hands like QQ or JJ, just given my reputation. not sure if i should be taking that into consideration, b/c i was showing a lot of strength, but i certainly wasn't priced in to call his four bet. and even though i thought there was a chance he had AA, i called b/c i just wasn't sure i didn't have the best hand.
as fuel said in jordan's comments, in a live 1k tournament, one would lay down KK there. that's what separates good players from great players. i do think there's a difference live, and a difference between blogger and general online tournaments, but i'm not sure i'm good enough to make a lay down like this. i'd like to think so, but i don't know. especially five-handed.
posted by lj at 1:28 AM
9 Comments:
Yeah, in a legitimate tournament you can think about folding KK. In a blogger tournament, I don't think I'd ever fold those preflop.
My only question actually is the amount of your three-bet. Is it too small or just right for your goal of building the pot there? I'm not quite sure. I do think you're letting more marginal, drawing hands in with your smallish re-re-raise there. I'm interested in your thoughts (precisely what you wanted to do, sort of what you wanted to do,etc).
cc - i think you're right that i three-bet too small. it's a leak i need to work on -- i get so excited to have someone in the pot w/ me when i have a big hand that i end up pricing in much worse hands. i think i should have raised to about 1100-1200.
I have never folded KK preflop in an on line tournament and doubt I ever will. Tough hand, but I wouldn't overthink it.
(CC updates notes on lucko: fish can't lay down kings pre-flop)
The fact is, VinNay would definitely have gotten it allin the way he was playing on Monday with hands like AK, QQ and JJ, and maybe even a few others (can you ever even rule out the Hammer, really?).
I'm with Lucko. I can see a situation where I lay down KK in a large buyin, live tournament, in the early stages. You do that in a $26 blonkament and you're making a big mistake. Just my two cents but I don't spend more than 5 seconds thinking about this particular hand after it happened. Just be glad you didn't have the AA and get sucked out on by a King on the turn.
Ya fold KK preflop and think your a genius and get showed QQ and you never do it again. I'm on the lucko/hoy boat. Never folding. Coolers suck.
I don't ever fold KK preflop online -- I doubt I even would do so first hand in the Sunday Million, if I ever played it, simply because of the number of superaggroEurodonks you run into who are making that move with AJo.
That said, given your stack size, if you make a more substantial pf raise to 950-1000 (no need to go as high as 1200 there, imho), you're almost priced in to make the call regardless.
While I was getting smacked in the head with the deck during the Math, there is no way i get it all in like this with JJ, QQ, or AK. I def call your 3 bet for 800 with those hands, but I don't push with anything but KK or AA.
Post flop with all unders on the board I can see pushing with JJ maybe, QQ probably.
All this said, I have a hard time folding KK online pre-flop. I have done it, but thats only when there is a raise, a reraise, and 2 or more all-in callers ahead of me.
But 2 players, KK, online? I never fold pre-flop.
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